The AvB is used to offer bonuses to aviators with critical skills or MOSs. So Army. 10 is nuts. For more information, please see our Be older than 18, but not more than 33 years at the time of board selection (Active Component (AC), USAR, and ARNG) . While a longer ADSO may help from looking solely at the numbers, it won't be effective at retaining quality talent. The US Army is missing the boat by not letting seasoned professionals into flight school. 6 years is a masters degree, 10 years is 2 years longer than a PH. But Im a guard guy so RTAG is at the end of hooker advanced airframe for me theyll be hiring, all my airline buddies said everything is ramping back up. Finally, the thing not being said about sending senior NCOs to flight school is the socialization at the company level piece. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts, https://thefrontlines.com/comics/army-pilots-beware/. 10 U.S. Code 2114: Graduates of the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences incur an ADSO of at least 7 years. Increased ADSO Effect on Recruiting and Retention Incentives proposed to better retain, progress Army pilots I see three and four star Generals with less, HOW?! The extended ADSO is intended to increase Army pilots' retention in the future. The Graduate School Option (GRADSO) portion of the CSP program continues to be suspended since YG2014 pending officer corps reshaping efforts. amp, Rather, the Modern War Institute provides a forum for professionals to share opinions and cultivate ideas. The consensus seems to be that if you graduate flight school in FY 2021, you accrue the 10 year ADSO. This is doubly applicable for aviation formations. I wonder how this will effect street to seat recruitment for WOFT. I'd love to see credit for the photo. How is my list for OCS? : r/army - Reddit They just can't have over 8 years TIS without a waiver. As long as hes getting a lot of flight time, Stan should have enough hours for a, When discussing any big-picture career options, I always make sure to follow Simon Sineks advice and, For anyone facing a 10-year military pilot ADSC/O, this means asking yourself: What is it about, For most, Top Gun played at least a little bit of a role. The U-2 and B-2 are both single-location aircraft, and they go through so much trouble getting their pilots that youd have to try to leave. After working several years in the corporate sector in various strategic positions, I recently came back on active duty due to the strong desire to serve. They might be stuck on Active Duty slightly longer than Stan, but hed have to spend at least a couple of years at a regional airline to even start competing for major airline jobs. They wont, we already dont get the congressionally authorized flight pay. Then 10 year service obligation put me right at 20 so Im not too worried about that. Expand The 10 year ADSO will actually prevent all but the youngest street-to-seaters from making the jump, I graduated flight school right after turning 24 and the AF won't take you after 33 without a waiver. "We probably need to look at it and adjust it a . That being said, they let you fly as your primary duty and fly cooler airframes. We are always either training or deploying. , I worry that Ive done people a disservice by making the Active Duty pilot career path seem too unattractive. Deployments are great flying, but terrible on a family. Army, Coast Guard . If you quit during flight school you are still obligated to fulfill the ADSO and reassigned to the needs of the Army. The service should find a better way of addressing its shortage of pilots. What I would propose is to change the flight school is conducted to make it cheaper and make it easier to increase throughput. And yet, theres a certain logic to questioning that 10-year commitment. Just like privates do certain tasks, junior warrant officers perform certain work as well, and I've personally seen a few folks not being able to deal with that change. Fixed wing is cheaper. So the recruitment piece has not historically been our challenge, it has been capacity and production. But what if the new ADSO invalidates this assumption? The US Army recently changed its aviation Active Duty Service Obligation from 8 to 10 years and created an absolute uproar. The Army Needs a Better Solution for its Pilot Shortage Im a senior NCO with two decades of experience and proven loyalty to the nation and her army. I'm thinking Army will start pushing dates to the right as much as possible to achieve its newfound maximum retention. The Army lowered the max TIS to 8 years for WOFT applicants a few years ago without a waiver. Back then the Army had a hard-on for pilots. Sounds great! Additionally, Cadets awarded Aviation Branch cannot participate in the Post of Choice program due to the inability to project requirements beyond flight school. For example, its the only service that allows people to go into flight training with only a high school degree. It further acts as a disincentive to those who would like to do the mission, but are unwilling to sacrifice a decade of their time in the event they don't like the lifestyle. 10 years is a good rate of return for the experience needed in being a pilot. Discretionary pay intended to be used as needed to address retention problems. COVID has taken care of the airline hiring problem for the next three to five years, making the issueance of an increased ADSO redundant. Next, hed go to his first assignment. There is no down time, no time to build family and relationships and the team. I greatly appreciate the responsiveness of this community and the depth of feedback y'all have provided, but I want to be sure that the consensus expressed herein is not just the culmination of a bunch of bad experiences but is actually a systemic issue. army aviation 10 year adso - tecis.in Perhaps it's just for RLOs but don't count on that. Suddenly, Active Duty isnt looking that bad, right? Soldiers pilot a CH-47 Chinook helicopter during a training flight over the city of Erbil in the Kurdistan Region of Iraq, May 23, 2020. More money for tents and rifles, I suppose. New aviators to incur 10-year service obligation - United States Army Branch of Choice: Your BRADSO obligation runs consecutively with your flight school ADSO and your commitment will run out to about the 10 year point. More career Enlisted apply than street2seat on a yearly basis. The Ultimate Military Pilot Career Path is to get hired directly by a Guard or Reserve unit and let them send you to UPT. One of the reasons for the increased ADSO was related to demand from the private sector for pilots. The Armys blind spot with retention data is further highlighted by comments made by Brig. So 6 years from ALE graduation day? Army Career Satisfaction Program I would have stayed in for another 10+ years if I had the opportunity to revert to Warrant Officer and fly more, but that opportunity doesn't exist. So here I am, considering branching aviation when all of a suddenBAM! Serving on Active Duty has plenty of advantages, and even offers some highly-desirable opportunities that you cant get anywhere else. I don't know if there are enough Officers getting out that would be willing to revert to WO to solve the pilot shortage, but maybe it would help. As long as hes getting a lot of flight time, Stan should have enough hours for a Restricted ATP rating and a shot at a regional airline job a couple of years before his Active Duty pilot peers. As a Guard or Reserve pilot, you may need to find a full-time flying job in addition to your military flying (full-time Guard/Reserve pilot jobs are available, but you should join with the expectation of needing civilian employment in addition to your military flying). Army Career Satisfaction Program Heres some humor about the topic too https://thefrontlines.com/comics/army-pilots-beware/. Ideally, hed also earn his Instrument Rating, and build as much experience as possible. What if Stans 5-year ADSC runs out as the next SARS/Swine Flu/COVID-type pandemic puts hiring on hold? During this time, Stan would at least need to obtain his Private Pilot Certificate. Due to the extreme demand produced by the GWOT, ground formations are insatiable with their demand for aviation support. This is both expensive and time-consumingtough to fit in around a 9-5 as an engineer, especially if he has a family. Why should you consider doing Company . Service commitments are different for Warrant Officers in the Army Reserve and the Army National Guard. No additional time added with a BRADSO. U.S. Army UH-60L Black Hawk helicopters from the New Jersey National Guards 1-150th Assault Helicopter Battalion sit on the flight line during sunset at the Army Aviation Support Facility, Joint Base McGuire-Dix-Lakehurst, N.J., Nov. 8, 2018. Stans Active Duty pilot peers would have spent 8-11 years since graduating from college flying for the military full time. Having looked at these options, lets go back to our original thought: If you missed your shot at the Ultimate Military Pilot Career Path are you screwed? If Stan becomes an engineer in the Air Force, hed probably have to attend some sort of training right after graduating from college. In the report provided to Congress, however, increasing the service obligation was not mentioned as a possible solution to pilot retention shortfalls. No one knows somehow, my S1 doesnt know either. If hed gone to UPT right after college, its more likely that hed get a lot of his deploying done before his kids were that old, or even before they were all born. Probably a 11-11.5 year commitment. If you, the seasoned army aviator, were still a senior in college and told that to become an aviator you had to sign for a 10-year + flight school ADSO, would you do it? Unlike pilot deployments that can be as short as a couple of months, engineer deployments are usually 6-12 months. Up to $15K per year payable to officers drawing Optometrist Regular Special Pay who have completed initial ADSO for education and training, and who execute a 12-month active duty service agreement. New Army directive will reset aviator warrant officer date of rank We are very, very interested in seeing more applications, he added. I am planning on staying in anyway but that 10 year also looms big if everything sucks and you hate it. They used their experience to mentor and groom all the other warrants around them including myself. Is a 10-year Active Duty ADSC so terrible that its worth passing up? That will solve our retention problem!" There's an easy answer to this the oblivious, tone-deaf culture of "readiness" that GEN Milley fostered while serving as the CSA. However, if you missed that boat youre far better off taking an Active Duty UPT slot than trying Stans way and doing 5 years as in a non-flying job. army aviation 10 year adso. You make an excellent point..I'm a twice retired CW4 (did a voluntary retiree recall three years after my first twenty). Anyway, I just clocked 20 years, 5 1/2 years of that has been spent in the Middle East and for what? Back in the 1950s, the Army ask for a waiver in not paying flight pay for its pilots. But then again, it's 4 more years of employment or should I say deployments. More career Enlisted apply than street to seat on a yearly basis. SUPERSEDED AR 600-8-29, 02/25/2005; SUPERSEDED ARMY DIR 2019-30, 10/01/2019: Footnotes: https://armypubs.army.mil 03-APPLICABLE TO ARNG UNITS: Security Classification : UNCLASSIFIED: Dist Restriction Code : A APPROVED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE; DISTRIBUTION IS UNLIMITED: Changes So now the prior Enlisted must do at least 11.5 years and advance to the grade of W3. I like the idea of the Ultimate career path because it still allows you to earn a 20-year military retirement.. The Army likes to have a balance between the two but they can change that over night. It doesn't matter that the WOFT contract I signed this week states that it is a 6 year ADSO - the Army can do and change what it wants. Subject to the needs of the Army, newly rated aviators should be used in operational flying duty positions immedi-ately after their successful completion of Army aviation flight training. This is not going to end well until leaders finally understand that there has to be a work/life balance. Unfortunately, it will likely not have the opportunity to do so due to the negative impact it will have on retention in the near term. It will harm recruiting and we will continue to bleed talent into the civilian aviation market. The root cause cited by those transitioning at various levels has related to toxic climates, mismanagement of professional profiles, quality of life, and unit culture. Deployed Civil Engineers https://www.dvidshub.net/image/491088/deployed-civil-engineers. Army Aviation: Alternatives to the 10-year Service Obligation At the same time it could drive a shortage of Aviation Officers, but if they're going to leave the Army anyway. For example, if there are 100 ROTC Aviation slots, only 20 can . Having been out of college for at least 5 years at the start of UPT, its more likely that Stan will have a spouse and kidsmaking the very busy year at UPT even more challenging. I agreed and accepted my appointment based on certain terms and the terms are getting altered without my consideration. If I am branched Aviation, this ADSO will begin upon completion of my flight school ADSO. Why would you stay in the Army where you barely get to be a normal human, where you could make twice the pay, work half the amount, and actually get to live a somewhat normal life? Gen. Michael McCurry, the director of Army aviation for the Office of the Deputy Chief of Staff G-3/5/7,who said in September, One question I often get asked is, are the airlines impacting your shortfall? If I am reading this correctly, this applies to officers that attend initial flight school after October 1st 2021. I've been in the Army for a long time, and it's never been worse than now. Im in shape, arguably intelligent, and have at least ten good years of service left in me yet an age waiver will not be considered for aviation for either OCS or WOCS. Additional Duty Safety Officer Course brings added - United States Army If pilots today are so unhappy that they are leaving in numbers higher than expected, why would prospective pilots accept a much longer service obligation for that same experience? If the Army rescinds this ADSO and reverts to the original six-year obligation, it will have six years to develop solutions to increase retention. Yes, they will retain aviators when the quality of life increases for aviation, not just grinding us into the ground until a new command comes along every 12-18 months and does it all over again. Also, it ap-plies to the Regular Army and Reserve Component officers (Army National Guard and U.S. Army Reserve) ordered into aviation service by the Secretary of the Army and applies to all commissioned and warrant officers who are training for or have Army aeronautical ratings. Increasing the ADSO, though, does not require datait is guaranteed to increase retention. I remember similar drama during my Fourth Class (freshman) year at the, Now that Im older and wiser, one of my many. The Army, by contrast, could only say that Army senior leaders recognize there are growing civilian opportunities for Army pilots. West Point graduates have a 5 year commissioning ADSO. The views expressed are those of the authors, and do not reflect the official position of the United States Military Academy, Department of the Army, or Department of Defense. Even just a year or two of delay erases any possible advantages of this career path. I at least expected a survey or something from the Aviation branch to ask why I was leaving, but again, nothing. Welcome back, fellow aviators! For the next decade of your life, you will deploy a lot and have little or no control over your assignment locations. I wouldnt put it past B Co to drop incorrect information and later say we didnt say that.. Has this officially started? WASHINGTON -- Starting in October, commissioned and warrant officers selected for initial entry flight training will be required to serve at least a decade once they become an Army aviator,. Paste as plain text instead, I was just curious if the numbers are stillsimilar. Ideally, you should enlist with one of those units as soon as youre old enough and serve part-time while you complete college. Branching Aviation New Commitment | Page 2 | United States of America Yes, most of us eventually plan to move on to the airlines. This plan assumes that Stan can get hired by a Guard or Reserve unit at this point. 2-4 more moves for assignments during his Active Duty career. Actually, the option to revert to Warrant Officer does exist. Initial assignments should be in table of organiza-tion and equipment (TOE) rather than table of distribution and allowances (TDA) units. From this mid-grade officer's perspective this constant obsession with readiness is actually detrimental to readiness. Posted on . Also new is that time in grade for WOs doesn't start until you graduate flight school. Our young NCOs want to become warrant officers and get out and fly. I don't know too many that would care to be told to mop the floor of the pilot's office, fill the refrigerator, go help wash the aircraft the things that junior warrants typically do when they are new to a unit out of flight school. 4 years closer to RTAG if they're hiring. and our We need people with your background, dedication and professionalism in the warrant officer cohort. It is the cheapest method for increasing retention rates, delivers a long-term investment in human capital, and provides a more predictable model for pilot production requirements. Proponents of the new ADSO have suggested that the Army is catching up with the Air Force and the Navy by matching its pilot obligation with theirs. How long is Army Warrant Officer School? With the ADSO now at 10 years after flight school, let's - reddit 10 years after flight school graduation. I feel that part of the problem is that the Army assessed too many senior NCOs into flight school, which helped get them into this box that they are in. The Army may producean averageof 1200 Warrant Officers pilots annuallyincluding the Guard and Reserves. I'm roaring and ready to go. Yes, most of us eventually plan to move on to the airlines. Flying helicopters looks pretty dope though. In the current COVID crisis, those years may soon make the difference between having a great job and getting kicked to the curb as a furlough. If you want military aviation to be a part of your life for more than 10 years, possibly even 20+ years, you should pursue any path that will get you there! Branch of Choice: Your BRADSO obligation runs consecutively with your flight school ADSO and your commitment will run out to about the 10 year point. 10 is a big commitment either way. Press J to jump to the feed. A RAND Corporation studyfound that even $35,000 a year would not be sufficient to stem the flow of Air Force pilotsthe study concluded a bonus cap between $38,500 and $62,500 would be necessary to make a meaningful impact. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Really sucks for all the street2seat guys coming in or anyone that has prior Aviation experience on the outside. Below are the commissioning ADSOs by source of commission: ROTC Non-Scholars have a 3-year commissioning ADSO. Required fields are marked *. An ADSO twice as long as other branches (for academy grads) or 6+ years longer than ROTC counterparts is only going to deter quality officers that view an additional obligation as a loss of opportunity for careers beyond the service. How do Warrant Officers get promoted? This! PDF Aviation Service of Rated Army Officers - United States Army By A Talk With The US Armys Underground Warfare Expert. There's a regulation whose number I can't recall at the moment that specifies when it starts. The future of Army aviation depends on retaining the pilots in whom it invests so much. Such changes may affect my status, Laws and regulations that govern military personnel may That's what the Army was counting on. Question for the Salty Dogs: 10 Year ADSO : Armyaviation - reddit I know there are exceptions to the rule, and I know some people haze junior warrant officers. Note: The waiver authority for this requirement is the Commanding General, U.S. Army Aviation Center, Fort Rucker, AL 36362-5000. . Nope. This could be a few weeks TDY, or a multi-month move. We should approach our congressmen to change the re-entry rules to allow ATPs. If you, the seasoned army aviator, were still a senior in college and told that to become an aviator you had to sign for a 10-year + flight school ADSO, would you do it? United States, and the U.S. Army Re-serve, unless otherwise stated. Hed probably get 2-3 years at that assignment, but if he did a good job the Air Force would offer him the chance to get a Masters Degree through the Air Force Institute of Technology (AFIT) at Wright Patterson AFB. Guess what? As several others have said, this policy fails to address the root problems high OPTEMPO, poor quality of life, irrelevant mandatory training, etc. Posted in these groups: Pilot Officers Warrant Officers 10 year ADSO - Page 2 - Vertical Reference Helicopter Forums Across the force, warrant officer recruiters are actively on the lookout to fill their ranks. Quote zaurus Members 280 Gender:Male Posted June 6, 2020 Alice's restaurant If you accept tuition assistance, 2 year ADSO. The program offers an incentive to remain on active duty in aviation service for either 3 or 5 years, beginning at ADSO expiry or contract approval date, whichever is later. Before people get started on the, this is the way the Army goes and all that, I know. So got word that it only affects WOs that complete WOCS after 1 Oct 2020. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. The report included a figure showing that the Army faced a shortfall of 330 warrant officerswho comprise 70 percent of the Armys pilot ranks. In the end, it's the Army getting a good return on the investments.. I'm good at doing Army things and I enjoy them too, but I don't know if I can commit so much of my life before I've even had my first real taste of being an officer. It turns out that even one year is a big difference. I retired in 1998. The Department of Defense released a report in July 2019 that laid out the challenges the military faces with pilot retention and included plans of action from each branch. Serving on Active Duty is also the only way to get an overseas flying assignment. One can just see all those 2LTs cringing when the folks at the bottom of each class are forced to take Aviation during the branching ceremony.